[wh40k] Akademia 40k/Ścisku Turniejowego

Rozpiski, zasady i pogaduchy o termosach i marynatach
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Rafi
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Re: [wh40k] Akademia 40k/Ścisku Turniejowego

Post autor: Rafi » 24 lip 2013, o 20:12

Możesz go przetłumaczyć dla dobra klubu :mrgreen:
(...)now holidays come, and then they go, nothin new to gain, collect another memory.. when I come home, late at night, don't ask me where I've been, just count your stars I'm home again..you could be mine, you could be mine,you could be mine, mine(...)
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Re: [wh40k] Akademia 40k/Ścisku Turniejowego

Post autor: Reksio » 25 lip 2013, o 06:00

Focus fire bardzo rzadko się przydaje. Też myślałem, że jest super i dlatego biorę min. piranie, ale nie skorzystałem z niego chyba ani razu, gdyż mało kto stoi po prostu w otwartym terenie...

Co innego w Fowie :P Tam to się dopiero da snajpować dowódców :)
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Re: [wh40k] Akademia 40k/Ścisku Turniejowego

Post autor: Major » 25 lip 2013, o 06:20

a mi sie przydaje i to bardzo czesto, pozatym w artykule masz napisane ze warto zasłaniac tez własnymi jednostkami tylko po to zeby zabijac odpowiednie modele z unitu przeciwnika.
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Re: [wh40k] Akademia 40k/Ścisku Turniejowego

Post autor: Reksio » 25 lip 2013, o 06:33

No przecież o tym pisałem w kontekście używania piranii :)
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Re: [wh40k] Akademia 40k/Ścisku Turniejowego

Post autor: Major » 26 lip 2013, o 06:03

Kolejny bardzo ważny artykuł, jak budować rozpiskę i czego mozna się spodziewać. tutaj np widać jak mocna jest rozpiska Reksia ktora pokrywa wszystkie podpunkty.


I've been thinking a lot lately about what you need to be able to deal with when you build an army list. We are all aware that there are power builds out there which bring units that, if not dealt with properly, will roll right over you like you aren't even there.

What's interesting is that in 6th, the introduction of flyers makes it so that it is nigh impossible to bring a list that is able to compete with every fringe army out there. This was possible in 5th (though straining on a lot of builds), but now it's important to recognize that you're just going to be able to bring the tools to smash all potential enemies. It's OK, though, because you can still come damn close, and you can often make up the difference in soft counters.

When I've been building lists, these are the things I think are absolutely needed:
Anti-Flyer. Bring SOMETHING. Despite a lot of conventional wisdom, you do NOT need a ton of anti-air to have a competitive list. A lot of people seem to think that Skyfire is the new meltagun- it isn't. You don't need to spam it every chance you get. Mostly, you just need enough to threaten flyers. A quad gun+one other unit is a fine amount of Skyfire for most lists, as you won't typically have to down more than 2 flyers, and you can ofter get away with just threatening them. Remember, you don't have to wipe the opponent out to win, you just have to do better than they do on the primary objective.Heldrakes deserve a special mention here, as well. Yes, a 3 Heldrake army is scary. No, you don't need to think about fighting it with every list you build. If you have the capability to take down 1 and threaten 2, you will probably be fine with good play. Let that fringe list hit some airforce heavy opponent, you don't need to overstress about it.

Finally, realize that it's OK to snapfire at targets- while a 1/6 chance to hit is, indeed, as bad as it gets, flyers outside of forgeworld only ever reach AV12 at best. I see a lot of players fire a lascannon shot at infantry over the snap shot against a flyer- it's OK to take your chances, take a look at the board and make sure you really know where your best shot should go.
A way to deal with AV14. AV14 vehicles are still running around, and I've yet to see a tournament that doesn't feature at least one Land Raider. If you don't have a way to deal with AV14 vehicles, you shouldn't expect to get very far. This is especially important given the re-release of Tau, who are completely capable of building an otherwise very strong list that has almost zero options to deal with this threat. Also, if your counter is very easily identifiable, or it is in such limited numbers that it may easily fall before getting its chance to work, you are still failing this test.I know that plasmaguns are all the rage this edition, but the meltagun still has a vital role in any armies. While it's probably not advisable to spam as many of them as last edition, it's important to have them present- and in many squads that can only take a single special weapon, I would advise you to take the meltagun every time.
A way to kill Monstrous Creatures. I've seen more than a few people laugh at the Writhknight, only to get stomped into the dirt by it. You need to be ready to deal with MCs, and you need a way to deal with them fairly quickly. Mathhammer is absolutely your friend when it comes to this- run the numbers, and figure out how powerful your high strength weapons really are. S7 seems like it would be effective against MCs, but the fact is without low AP it is actually pretty terrible against Wraithknights and Riptides unless you have some Monster Hunter rolling around. (Which are really the two most dangerous MCs out there.)Decent sniping options are becoming more and more common in codecies, and it's important to recognize how powerful these options are against MCs. Necron Deathmarks and Tau Sniper Drones or Sniper Kroot (with fun commander monster-hunter bonus!) are both extremely powerful options against any MC. Eldar also have a potent weapon against MCs in the form of bladestorm- remember, MCs just don't have a ton of wounds, every one counts, and they add up fast.
A way to kill fast stuff. Eldar jetbikes are the ultimate example of why this is needed- they can easily dance in-and-out of range, denying a fair amount of counterfire. If you're relying on melee to do most of your killing, you can expect to lose to fast lists most of the time, unless you can bring some decent firepower to down the things you cannot catch. The simple fact of the matter is that the units in this game are getting faster all the time- even 6th ed itself made units faster by allowing units to move and leave their heavy weapon stationary and still fire, and fire rapid fire weapons at full distance even when they move.What this means is that you need to be able to lay wounds on infantry at range- often, this means the high-ROF decent strength guns that you should already be bringing. If you only have access to low-AP high strength weapons with a low rate of fire, you're going to have trouble with jetbikes all the time. You need to bring a balance between anti-tank firepower, anti-infantry shooting, and melee ability.

Finally, be aware that there are two common builds for virtually every army you need to be able to deal with: mass tanks and mass infantry.
Mass tanks are extremely vulnerable to assault this edition: it's important to recognize that even a few marines are more than capable of destroying 90% of the tanks in the game. And even a single Wytch can do significant damage by throwing a haywire grenade and then attaching another in melee.When fighting a mass armor list, always be looking to destroy the vehicles. What's inside is often pretty weak compared to the tanks and transports themselves, which means that destroying armor robs the army of its mobility and its offensive output. Remember, you DON'T have to build a list that has the capability to down 8 vehicles a turn- being able to destroy 2-3 at range is plenty of firepower, and should be perfectly fine when combined with your other potential offensive options.
Mass infantry will typically consist of several blocking units, backed by more valuable units that bring the REAL power of the list. Here's the important thing when fighting these types of lists: kill the good stuff. No, seriously. That may sound obvious, but it's very easy to think that you need to dismantle support elements before going after the more valuable fare.Don't do that. Don't look at a Tau army, and think, “if I kill the pathfinders, that squad of Crisis Suits will be less effective!” Just shoot the damn crisis suits. They're fragile. While there are exceptions to this, but for the most part, this is the golden rule of target priority: what is best to kill now is best to kill. Don't worry about the future, don't stress turn 6 on turn 1- think about what needs to die for turn 2. Put those shots into valuable units, and save the firepower for things like blocking units for just before you charge them.

Besides preparing for these factors, list building is still a great deal of personal preference. It is important to note that “having an answer” does not necessarily mean “bring as much of a counter as possible”. In truth, you can build extremely competitive lists that only bring the tools to deal with the above threats in quite restricted moderation. 2-3 units that are effective against each is probably fine (as long as those units aren't too fragile!).

Remember: what is important is not that you crush specific enemy units, but that you can compete with as many lists as possible. Don't get taken by surprise and steamrolled, and don't fall for the all-or-nothing mentality of list building. It's about balance.
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Re: [wh40k] Akademia 40k/Ścisku Turniejowego

Post autor: Reksio » 26 lip 2013, o 08:10

Nie ma tu jeszcze najważniejszego elementu w sumie :)

Armia musi być na tyle wyporna, żeby móc przez jakiś czas przynajmniej te punkty spełniać !
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Re: [wh40k] Akademia 40k/Ścisku Turniejowego

Post autor: Major » 26 lip 2013, o 14:52

tylko drobna wzmianka ale jest, jest jeszcze druga opcja. W alpha albo beta striku robimy taki przesiew ze przeciwnik juz tak bardzo nam nie odda. np bazują na tym DE (oczywiscie nie działa na wszystko w tej edycji).
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Re: [wh40k] Akademia 40k/Ścisku Turniejowego

Post autor: Major » 30 lip 2013, o 19:44

bardzo przyjemny artykuł na temat marinów i tworzenia z nich hordówek. kilka podejsc do tematu od strony różnych codexów. co wiecej. te armie są jak najbardziej grywalne. jesli ktoś chce złozyć tesco value allegro army, ten artykuł jest dla niego. Aha, artykuł jest pisany przez wielkiego fana so called spam armies, wiec za ładne to one nie są, ale za to 60 power armorów nie może źle wygladac na polu bitwy :D.

Goatboy here again and today I want to go back to looking at Marines. Not just a few Astartes, but BUSHELS of 3+ armor .



I know we haven't been seeing them much as of late and I feel it is due to the annoyance of the Heldrake that is keeping them at bay. Instead of waxing on that subject I have decided to try and make it work with the tools we have with some of the Marine codexes. Who knows if the armies are worthwhile and as usual this is just an experiment with just trying to fit in as many boots on the table top as we can.

I don't want to do drop pods as there are too many times the locked in nature of the drop pod leaves you to the evils of the Heldrake. Plus a crafty opponent will be able to mitigate some of the tricks you can use to try and keep from getting burned alive. I do think that one model is what keeps a lot of marine armies safe and sound in their foam prisons. So with that in mind - let's start with the first list.

(Yes you see the CTRL C/CTRL V - these lists are thought list so they are basic in nature at first and with playing you can tweak and add. Yeah the HQ choices for Rune Priest are due to my local metagame where MC Smash (Sorry...) is very popular so anti Psychics are very good)

Space Wolves
Viking Horde of Doom Version 1.01

HQ: Rune Priest, Terminator Armor, Meltabombs - Murderous Hurricane, JaWs
HQ: Rune Priest, Terminator Armor, Chooser of the Slain - Living Lightning, JaWs
HQ: Rune Priest, Terminator Armor, Chooser of the Slain, Meltabombs - Living Lightning, Murderous Hurricane
HQ: Rune Priest, Terminator Armor, Chooser of the Slain, Wolftooth Necklace - Living Lightning, Storm Caller
Elites: Wolf Guard Terminators X 6, Power Maul X 6, Cyclone Missile Launcher
Elites: Lone Wolf, Terminator Armor, Power Maul, Chainfist
Elites: Lone Wolf, Terminator Armor, Power Maul, Chainfist
Troops: Grey Hunters X 10, Plasma Gun X 2, Wolf Standard
Troops: Grey Hunters X 10, Plasma Gun X 2, Wolf Standard
Troops: Grey Hunters X 10, Meltagun X 2, Wolf Standard
Troops: Grey Hunters X 10, Flamer X 2, Wolf Standard
Troops: Grey Hunters X 10, Flamer X 2, Wolf Standard
Heavy: Long Fangs X 6, Missile Launcher X 5

1850

Basically you have two Terminator Armor Saves in each Grey Hunter squad so you can place them in the areas where they can take the brunt of the burning. If you need to live a turn you can burn the Wolf Standard to try and tank as much as you can so your models can survive and shoot the Dragon in the butt and anything else.

The 4 Rune Priests are a lot and you can add in Wolf Guard or Wolf Priest if you prefer. This list is again bent towards the competitive side of things and dealing with what I see. Lots of Daemons and Eldar so the 4+ FU is very powerful locally. The two Lone Wolves are there to run up, get in the way and cause problems like they normally do. I went with a Chainfist/Power Maul combo as it allows me to be annoying in all sorts of ways.

Blood Angels
Now let's go to another old codex that we don't see too often - Blood Angels. This one can do something similar with the priests as well. I think it bears looking at as it will control the table top and always get a save most of the time with FNP.

HQ: Librarian, Terminator Armor
Elites: Sanguinary Priest X 3, Terminator Armor X 3
Elites: Sanguinary Priest X 2, Terminator Armor X 2
Troops: Death Company X 10, Power Maul X 2
Troops: Tactical Squad X 10, Plasma Gun, Lascannon
Troops: Tactical Squad X 10, Plasma Gun, Lascannon
Troops: Tactical Squad X 10, Flamer, Missile Launcher
Troops: Tactical Squad X 10, Flamer, Missile Launcher
Troops: Tactical Squad X 10, Flamer, Missile Launcher.
Heavy: Predator, TWL Lascannon, Lascannon Sponsons
Heavy: Predator, TWL Lascannon, Lascannon Sponsons

1850

Another midranged army designed to sit in the middle, cause problems, and hopefully shoot a lot. Plus it uses Tactical Marines. Who doesn't love Tactical marines. You get the added Benefit of having FNP all over the place as well. This is just another look at making huge and fat units of Marines.

Dark Angels
What about the new book? Dark Angels. How do they horde up and utilize wound allocation with 2+ save jerks leading from the front?

HQ: Librarian, Terminator Armor
HQ: Librarian, Terminator Armor
HQ: TechMarine, Powerfield Generator
HQ: TechMarine, Powerfield Generator
Elite: Dreadnought, TWL Autocannon X 2
Troops: Tactical Squad X 10, Plasmagun, Lascannon
Troops: Tactical Squad X 10, Plasmagun, Lascannon
Troops: Tactical Squad X 10, Flamer, Missile Launcher
Troops: Tactical Squad X 10, Flamer, Missile Launcher
Troops: Scouts X 10, Sniper Rifles X 10, Camo Cloaks X 10
Troops: Scouts X 10, Sniper Rifles X 10, Camo Cloaks X 10
Heavy: Predator, TWL Lascannon, Lascannon Sponsons
Heavy: Predator, TWL Lascannon, Lascannon Sponsons
Heavy: Predator, TWL Lascannon, Lascannon Sponsons

Yeah it looks boring as all get out but that is a ton of boots on the table top. You don't have FNP but you do have 4+ inv saves until the Tech Marine eats it. The Scouts are designed to outflank, get your line break and set up shop somewhere to sell homemade candles or something. You should have enough long range firepower to hurt things if needed and you should be annoying enough to take awhile to knock out of their zone. You do need to watch for the Land Raider Build - but that is such a big win to big loss style list that it becomes hard to justify in a 5 round event.

The Wolves have the easiest time getting some 2+ save jerks in units and I still feel they are the best of regular marines (not counting Grey Jerks). I am just trying to think how to fit in Marines in the new environment. I know there are lists but if you don't see a ton of bodies on the table top with 3+ armor then it just doesn't feel like a marine army. Here is hoping the new book fixes things.

Chaos Marines
Oh and for fun - how about an CSM horde that isn't cultists/zombies.

HQ: Terminator Chaos Lord, Power Maul
HQ: Fabius Bile
Troops: CSM X 20, Plasmagun, Autocannon, Meltabombs
Troops: CSM X 20, Plasmagun, Autocannon, Meltabombs
Troops: CSM X 20, Flamer, Missile Launcher, Meltabombs
FA: Heldrake, Baleflamer
FA: Heldrake, Baleflamer
Heavy: Predator, Lascannon Sponsons
Heavy: Predator, Lascannon Sponsons
Heavy: Predator, Lascannon Sponsons

You basically create 3 Fearless blobs of guys - 2 from the IC joining and one from the Enhanced warriors. This is again a mission list and not a crush your face list. Still the Dragons can just randomly win you games.

So there you go - a bunch of marine lists I am sure will generate a cry of boredom. Marines are in a weird place right now where the Xenos are finally coming back to dominate again. There needs to be a lot of changes to help Marines along.
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Re: [wh40k] Akademia 40k/Ścisku Turniejowego

Post autor: Major » 15 paź 2013, o 06:11

Bardzo dobry artykuł o tym jak sie wystawiać, jak kłasc znaczniki, jaka strone stołu wybrac grajac przeciw tau.

http://www.3plusplus.net/2013/10/top-te ... ating-tau/
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Re: [wh40k] Akademia 40k/Ścisku Turniejowego

Post autor: Gabriel » 20 paź 2013, o 22:14

Wracając do Idei :)

Może by tak wyznaczyć jeden dzień na miesiąc/dwa żeby się spotkać np. w zonie na cąły dzień by starsi stażem gracze ścisnęli młodszych stażem graczy, wyjaśniając głupoty które potencjalnie zrobili w manewrach rozumowaniu itp ?

Nie w sensie turnieju (żeby lepsi nie grali ze sobą) tylko pod rząd 3 łupnie od Krysiaka/Majora/Ruperta/Reksia/Slana(*) i może jakiś gościnnych występów :P :P


*o ile te osoby się zgodzą ofc :)
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